Ep 3: Shannon goes all in on mental health

[00:00:00] Shannon: some of the best performing businesses, have some of the best people policies. Especially in small businesses, those are the organizations that thrive because people feel valued. They feel part of something that gives them a sense of accomplishment.

[00:00:17] HOST: Hi I'm Andrea Marquez -- and This is Small Business – a podcast by Amazon. I assume, since you're listening right now, you're curious about what makes a small business tick. Maybe you're an entrepreneur yourself, and you're looking for tips on things like how to scale up, hire a great team, or promote your brand. Or maybe, like me -- you're dreaming of starting a small business one day, and wondering if you've got what it takes. On this show -- I'm making it my "business" to find out everything I can about what it takes to turn a great idea into a small business by asking small business owners themselves and focusing in on the pivotal moments, decisions, and challenges they are going through. I want know how to think scrappy and small -- and of course -- how to grow and succeed. [00:01:00] By the end of this episode I will recap everything we learn today into tangible, actionable takeaways for you to use in your small business journey.

You know, the more I talk to different small business owners, I’m always super impressed by their grit and mental fortitude. I'm understanding that it really takes a lot of mental resilience to run a small business. Especially with the long nights, and the feeling of always being “on” 24/7. Though rewarding, it can be stressful at times. So how do you maintain mental wellbeing in the middle of all the stress? And how can you help your team manage it in a way that makes them feel valued while allowing your business to keep growing?

[00:01:42] HOST: The contents of the podcast, such as text, graphics, images, and other material contained are for informational purposes only. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your mental health professional or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding your condition. [00:02:00] Never disregard professional advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

[00:02:09] In a few minutes -- we're going to meet a workplace mental health expert who will help us answer these questions. But first -- let me introduce you to an entrepreneur who truly cares: about the world, and about her employee’s mental wellbeing. Shannon Goldberg is a 'C.Z.W.O.'  That's Chief Zero Waste Officer. She runs a cosmetics company, Izzy Zero Waste, and she strives --every day -- to meet her own incredibly exacting environmental standards.

[00:02:38] Shannon: We created the world's first zero waste beauty brand that is also certified carbon neutral and all of our components can be washed and refilled more than 10,000 times. Meaning the mascara tubes and lip butter tubes that we're creating today can be around for the next 2,500 years.

[00:02:55] HOST: See what I mean? She's not playing around.

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[00:02:58] Andrea: Shannon. [00:03:00] I am so happy to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being with me.

[00:03:04] Shannon: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited as well.

[00:03:06] Andrea: Let’s dive right in, how did you come up with Izzy, and what is it like today?

[00:03:11] Shannon: Yeah, so I've been in beauty for 16 years now. And I never had the experience of working on a clean or sustainable beauty brand. And I knew that the world was definitely headed down a more sustainable path. And I remember being in quarantine, stuck at home like everyone else. And I remember just coming across this article from National Geographic. And it cited, the beauty industry goes through 120 billion units of unrecyclable plastic a year. And I remember just being like shook to my core, like, oh my gosh, I've been part of the drama. I've been part of the problem. I never thought about plastic waste. And you know, once you read something like that, you just can't help, but obsess over the details and want to learn more. I mean, "knowledge is power." And I became obsessed [00:04:00] with that whole idea of like, what - what's happening with all of our waste, where is it going and how can I make this better? And that's really where the idea of Izzy began.

[00:04:10] HOST: If anyone else has that slightly uncomfortable feeling right now...you're not alone. I myself have a handful of empty plastic mascara applicators and lipstick tubes sitting in a drawer at home. And if I 'multiply' this by everyone who wears mascara... wow! Luckily -- Izzy Zero Waste has a hack for that.

[00:04:31] Shannon: The idea to create bottles out of medical grade, stainless steel came from the medical industry. My team and I just started to question like, how do surgeons and dentists get around using the same tool on multiple people a day invasively? And the truth is they use a triple medical cleanse to remove all the bacteria buildup and microbial buildup. And I realized we could do that same exact thing in beauty, we could actually create a brand solely based on refills that would get endless uses to really like, be a [00:05:00] true solve for our industry. And that's really, how Izzy started. And it really is a first of its kind. So I'm just excited to no longer be part of the problem.

[00:05:10] Andrea:  That's amazing. The lengths you went to, to not just, you know, have your own business and product, but also to make sure that that product helps the world in some way, or has some positive footprint. And so we understand what your product is: as a makeup user, myself,

[00:05:28] Shannon: Yes?

[00:05:29] Andrea: How do you refill mascara? That seems crazy to me. Like how do you put it back into that tube?

[00:05:35] Shannon: So you don't have to do anything yourself. The whole idea was that we wanted to make sustainability easy. And what happens is you receive your products and it shows up fresh on your doorstep or mailbox. I should say you have 90 days with that product, which is like a normal run-out rate.

And then 90 days later, fresh formula shows up at your doorstep. And that's your aha cue [00:06:00] to sort of put your old used product back in the reusable shipper that comes with a prepaid mailer solution. You stick it back in your mailbox and it's just this easy seamless turnover. The whole idea is we're zero waste. So nothing ends up in landfills or oceans. And just to like really break it down how obsessive we were during the entire product development process. So you know, the truth about the steel is that it can be washed and refilled over 10,000 times. But we do use 94% less plastic. So we do have our wand and our wiper made out of a PCR plastic. But what we do from there is when we collect back the used products, we actually grind the plastic down to its original virgin resin, and we find post-consumer use for them.

So right now, I'll give you an example. Um, the, the plastic wands and wipers are easy. We just remelted down to the plastic and make it new again. But for our lip applicator, we couldn't do that cause it's a spongy material, but we were able to find another use for that smudgy material. And it's now going into seat cushions for children's chairs in schools.

So there's all these uses. [00:07:00] These post-consumer uses that we really had to dream up. And then the water that we use for our triple medical cleanse to make sure we get rid of absolutely everything before we refill the components with fresh formula, even that water is purified and renewed, so it never ends up in oceans or landfills and we keep our waterways clean.

[00:07:19] Andrea: I am so impressed. That’s truly amazing. This must be a large haul though, how many people are on your team?

[00:07:26] Shannon: So it's so funny, you would think we would have this big team, but the truth is there's I think four people running our brand.

[00:07:33] Andrea: that to me is crazy!

[00:07:34] Shannon: It's crazy.

[00:07:36] HOST: This is a small team with big goals, goals that take a lot of work. And I was thinking about how much work each individual team member must have plus the mental toll that the pandemic has taken on everyone. Investing in your business’ mental health should be a priority, not only because of their general well-being but it is also tied to productivity which in turn affects the business growth. According to the World Health Organization, [00:08:00] for every Dollar put into scaled up treatment for common mental disorders, there is a return of $4 in improved health and productivity.

So I wanted to learn more about how such a small team like Shannon’s is addressing mental well-being.

[00:08:18] Andrea: you're doing all of this -- only four of you! And, and so what is it like as a leader of this very small team, trying to make such a large impact? How do you help everyone navigate that world of not burning out and, and staying mentally healthy?

[00:08:36] Shannon: Yeah. So that was the interesting part. So not only is Izzy an unusual brand, never been done before. We also launched the brand in the middle of the pandemic in 2020, and we did it, we somehow launched this brand within nine months without ever seeing each other in person.

It was obsessive phone calls and texting and zoom and the whole thing. The truth is, is that we became family. We speak to each other[00:09:00] multiple times a day. Things happened within the pandemic. Two of my partners had babies, new babies, another one got a new puppy and everyone's sort of navigating this tricky time together. This year, I would say the last two years is really about meeting the team wherever they're at.

You know, a friend said this to me the other day, we all sort of show up to work in our daily lives with an invisible backpack of issues of, of problems. We all have challenges and problems and our daily lives. So it’s one like, learning to see yourself in each other and know that, you know, life is really a series of moments, ebbs and flows, ups and downs, peaks, and valleys, and seeing your team where they are that given day, knowing when people on your team need a break, of course, new babies come in the mix, you need to take time off. And I think what's cool about us is that we're all willing to roll up our sleeves and learn how to jump in wherever we can, but also knowing like, alright, does this problem really needed to be solved today? Can it wait a week? And just like always taking a moment to take inventory of where we are and [00:10:00] how we can get through the day in the most mindful and peaceful way possible.

[00:10:05] HOST: I think we need to pause for a second here. Because what Shannon just said kind of flies in the face of everything I've always heard about workaholic entrepreneurs burning the midnight oil, and startup culture being one big churning pool of stress. Treating them like family? Pausing to have babies? Can it wait a week? I think these things sound like they might be the key to keeping her staff happy. But how does occasionally slowing the pace affect her company's growth - - and where does her own mental health fit in to the picture?

[00:10:38] Shannon: One of my biggest challenges right now is taking Izzy from a small business to a big business. Making sure that we are healthy on all fronts, mentally, financially, physically as a brand. As a leader, the thing is, if I'm not mentally healthy, then the team's not going to be mentally healthy. So every day, [00:11:00] I really wake up and try to be mindful of how I can take care of myself so I can take the best care of my team.

[00:11:07] HOST: Even though the pandemic is winding down, addressing mental health is something that continues to stay because it has now become a business metric. Leaders are learning that mental health directly impacts productivity and growth. And investing in employee mental well-being makes so much sense when we consider that we spend a big chunk of our time in the workplace. The benefit that small businesses like Izzy Zero Waste have, is that they are starting out their business with this in mind and know that they have an opportunity to create a structure that fosters mental wellbeing from the inception of the business.

[00:11:42] Andrea: So what was that moment where you realized you had to do something about this and drop a few things on the side, just so that you could focus in on how everyone's doing?

[00:11:53] Shannon: So someone like me, the way I'm wired, I am go, go, go, go, go. But I've also been labeled a pressure cooker, [00:12:00] which is not, not a good way to exist, right? It's like you take on the problems of the world. You try to solve everything in a day.

You're taking, in my case, I'm taking care of my family as well, managing my home, my children, my, my work, and often I get to these points where I feel maxed out. And I feel like I'm going to explode any moment and, and that's not cool for anyone to go through. So I think that was a moment for me where it's like, all right, normalize, feeling feelings, and, and also understand, and, and truly be empathetic towards your team and be aware of when they're not okay. So, me feeling a pressure cooker like that, that happens all the time. I experienced that frequently and that's when I know, all right, slow down, just slow down. Like let's, let's do a moment of resetting and oftentimes, it's, it's like a five-minute meditation on the Peloton app. Sometimes it's like lighting a candle and listening to music or taking a bath and just like resetting when you know you're not okay. It's these little micro-moments that ended up having a really big impact.

[00:13:00] But another moment, a few months ago, someone on my team, one of, you know, the lead executive members, had a moment where they were not okay. They weren't Okay. And it was an honor for me to tell this person. Go, go get the help you need, go, go do whatever you need, whether it's a retreat or, counseling, whatever it is, like take these two weeks off into yourself and get better because if you're not good, the work's not going to be good and it's not worth it. And these things can wait.

[00:13:30] Andrea: I think that's incredibly important too, being aware of: how is the person you're with doing? The person you sit next to every day and asking those questions is super important. So are there any practices that you're making official as you grow Izzy that you're considering to implement aspart of the company culture to help with mental health in general?

[00:13:50] Shannon: Yes. So one thing when starting my own company, I wanted to put these practices into place right away.So that, I mean, again, there's only four of us-

[00:14:00] Andrea: Four mighty ones, I will say!

[00:14:03] Shannon: Four really hardworking people, but I, I had to sort of reflect on my past, to determine what the future of Izzy should look like. And I took inventory of past jobs and past situations that just weren't okay. Things that like really made me feel like I was losing it or that I had imposter syndrome or that I wasn't good enough or smart enough, or that I didn't earn my seat at the table. And what were those problems and how do we make sure they don't come to life in Izzy, how can we make sure that they don't manifest themselves in this, you know, new brand world that we're creating?

So I happened to be in a good part of life, right? Like I've had my own struggles, but like, I can honestly say to you today, like I go to bed happy every day. I love where I'm at, but it came with a lot of struggle and it was really hard to get here. But I think when you're sort of in a good place that's probably the most important time, because that's when you need to look at your friends who are not, or your coworkers who are not in a so good place [00:15:00] and like really being there for them and seeing them and hearing them and listening to them and, and really like taking that opportunity when you are in a good place to help people on your team who may be not in a good place and just being an ear or a shoulder to cry on like really being empathetic towards them.

And then I would say, just keeping the lines of communication open. There used to be a common saying in my past life, stay in your own lane, you're in marketing. You have no business in sales or product development. And that, I just don't believe in that. I believe in a flat world culture where we can all weigh in. And just because you, you may be the social media manager doesn't mean that you may not have a great idea for the next best product that we didn't even know about. So that idea of being inclusive and just because I'm five years older than my social media manager, it doesn't mean that she's not as smart and doesn't have as good of ideas.

And then the last thing is like, a sense of humor goes a long way. So my team, like we're constantly cracking jokes. Like I am the queen of mom jokes and corny things. [00:16:00] And laughing is amazing because it also allows your team to loosen up and not feel so rigid around you. So like being more human around each other and like, you know, laughing about the silly things that happen throughout your day.

And it just makes the conversation that much more fluid.

[00:16:16] HOST: So just to recap -- Shannon mentioned a few key things that she does to foster workplace mental health:leading by example, creating a space where people feel comfortable sharing ideas no matter where they are in the ladder -- and fostering a culture that isn't agist, and doesn't take itself too seriously.

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[00:16:35] HOST: MIDPOINT: You're listening to This is Small Business -- brought to you by Amazon. I'm your host Andrea Marquez. On this show, I want to take you guys through my journey of figuring out what it takes to start a small business today by asking small business owners themselves and focusing on the pivotal moments, decisions, and challenges they are going through.

Did you know that more than half of the products sold on Amazon come from small-and-medium sized businesses? [00:17:00] Shannon Goldberg, who you just heard, is one of the many small business owners selling on Amazon who have tapped into some of the tools and resources offered to help them succeed and grow. You can learn more about them in our show notes on our website ThisisSmallBusinesspodcast.com.

Coming up -- I'll be speaking to a workplace mental health expert about some other specific things small business owners can do to improve the mental wellbeing of their employees, and themselves. But first I hope you've been enjoying my conversation with founder Shannon Goldberg from Izzy Zero Waste. What jumps out for me is how Shannon's "slow down and doit right" philosophy runs all the way through her business -- from the ways he handles her products, to the supportive culture she strives to create.

[00:17:52] Shannon: And we all sort of choose how to show up each and every day. And I think. The important thing to know is you have a choice and you don't, [00:18:00]if you're having a bad day, you don't have to fake a smile and fake your way through the day, like it is okay. And I just, I love that the world is sort of embracing that, that we are people, and we all have a story and we all are complex creatures with issues that need to be heard and seen.

[00:18:18] Andrea: Thank you so much, Shannon.

[00:18:20] Shannon: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was so much fun.

[00:18:22] HOST: Such a cool and inspiring brand -- and a powerful commitment to mental health. Shannon really inspired me. I don't know what my future business will be -- but when I eventually start it -- I want to be sure to take some of the spirit of Izzy Zero Waste with me. From women empowering women, to keeping it real when you're having a bad day. I don't think it's naive to say that. Authenticity really matters to younger generations-- and so does mental health. So to find out a bit more about what we can do in our jobs and workplaces and small businesses to create a culture of mental wellbeing -- I reached out to Sheila Lord. [00:19:00] She's the founder of a UK based company -- BMR Health and Wellbeing. And she's well-known for her ability to "cut to the chase."

[00:19:10] Andrea: Sheila, thank you so much for being with me today.

[00:19:13] Sheila: You're welcome. It's great to be here.

[00:19:15] HOST: Sheila's company leads the way in mental health support programs for workers, all of which she says have a definitive return on investment. BMR coordinates employee helplines, mental health workshops, team building events, digital mental health tools, and other workplace wellness programs. But what triggered me was when I read that Sheila believes workplace wellbeing isn’t just about fruit bowls and yoga. She's insistent that you can’t simply magic away employee stress by ‘fixing’ people.So if you aren't fixing people? What ARE you fixing?

[00:19:52] Andrea: With your extensive on mental health in the workplace. Can you tell me, as a small business owner, why it's important to consider your team [00:20:00] or your employees’, mental wellbeing?

[00:20:03] Sheila: If we're not looking after the mental health and wellbeing of everybody, in a small business, we really, really feel the impact of that in terms of productivity. So it's really important that everybody in the business, is operating, and functioning and performing as well as they possibly can.

[00:20:19] Andrea: I'm not a small business owner myself so, all of this is new to me and I really want to understand, how could I, as a small business owner begin to approach the topic of mental health wellbeing with my team in a way that sets foundational success for the growth of the business?

[00:20:38] Sheila: I think one thing that we do when it comes to workplace mental health is that we really overthink it. And we really over-complicate it. And our mental health goes up and it goes down, we'll have good days. We'll have bad days. We'll have days where we absolutely fly and we're absolutely thriving. And that could go for weeks and months. And then bam, life throws us a curve. And it knocks us off our feet. And all of a sudden, [00:21:00] our mental health may take a nose dive. But what we need to have in the workplace, what we need to have from employers is, a work environment whereby it's okay for us to feel comfortable and safe that we're not going to be judged, that we're not going to be, kind of deemed you know, non-functional or not worthy just by speaking up and say, well, actually I could do with some help and I could do some support.

[00:21:23] Andrea: And can you give me an example of to implement this at a small and large scale?

[00:21:30] Sheila: Well, I think that needs to be training within organizations to have an understanding of mental health. So some basic mental health awareness training, is essential, in the organization.And also an understanding from people that are in the position of looking after other people, of managing people to understand what that managing people really is and what that actually includes. Because a lot of the time when we talk about having managers in the business and managing people, we're talking really about managing performance on work performance or not actually [00:22:00] managing thoughts and feelings of people. And actually in the role of a manager, we're there to guide, we're there to support, we're there to resource, develop, and give our staff all of the tools that they need to be able to do their job well.

So I think it's really, really important. That managers understand what their responsibilities are when it comes to workplace mental health and that they understand the basics of mental health and the most common signs of mental ill health, so that they're trained and understand how to have a conversation that might be a bit delicate. And equally employees need to have that awareness. You know, we, as individuals need to know what basic mental health is, and that's not always taught to us. Mental health has always been this stigmatized area. That until probably the last 10 years or so, it started to kind of, you know, the barriers have started to break down. [00:23:00] We've started to talk about it more. There's a lot more education in workplaces, but we've still got a long way to go, but knowledge is power.

[00:23:08] Andrea: Knowledge is Power. Funny. That's exactly whatShannon said when she read the article in National Geographic about plastics in the beauty industry. Knowledge is power -- and once you have it -- there's no going back. Maybe we as a society are finally getting past the point of denying the importance of mental health.

[00:23:25] Sheila: And once we understand our thoughts and feelings, once we understand that having a bad day and feeling like we can't cope with it and we can't get through today or feeling like we're struggling is normal, it's just part of life's ups and downs. It's no different to having the common cold. We don't beat ourselves up when we have to take a duvet day because we've got blocked sinuses and a migraine. So why do we feel the shame when we have the mental health equivalent. And I think it's really important to have that education and that awareness.

[00:23:55] HOST: Education and awareness. Makes sense. You can't solve a problem till you know it exists [00:24:00] and you know how to talk about it. But if it were just a matter of education and awareness -- I feel fewer businesses would be struggling with this issue right now. So I asked Sheila what she thought the main mistake small business owners make is -- when it comes to trying to help their employees mental health.

[00:24:16] Sheila: A lot of businesses fall into the trap when it comes of workplace mental health of trying to put initiatives in that focus on teaching individuals to be more resilient to stress. When actually what we should be doing is looking at the organizational factors. i.e. in what way that we do our jobs is making us stressed? So do we have, for example, a very bad relationship with a coworker? Teaching me to be resilient to a poor relationship with a coworker is counterproductive. Yeah? You're wasting your money teaching me to be resilient to a behavior that I shouldn't have to accept in the first place or relationship that shouldn't be acceptable in the first place. What we need to do [00:25:00] is to look at what's causing the stress from a work factors level, and deal with those factors. For example, it could be high workloads, you know, it might be that we're under-resourced.

We're not stressed because we're weak. And because we can't cope, we're being stressed because we're being pulled to the edge of our limits.

[00:25:24] HOST: So in other words -- treat the root cause. Sheila says understanding this is critical. The health of your business could depend on it. She also says it needs to be an ongoing effort.

[00:25:36] Sheila: Well-being and mental health at work cannot be "an initiative", something that we do from time to time. If it's an initiative that gives the impression that it's something that we do temporarily. When things go wrong, we pick it up, we play with it. We put some yoga around it. We put some fruit bowls. We all sit around and holding hands and singing happy songs and doing a duvet day. And then all of a sudden everything's right with the world of work. It doesn't work. [00:26:00] It really doesn't work.

[00:26:05] HOST: So what does work? Sheila says she's a believer in exercising good old-fashioned empathy in the workplace.

[00:26:13] Sheila: We seem to leave the human out of the human being when we walk through the door and we tend to become these little robots that have to manage, we have to do this. We lose empathy. We have to be tough. We have to be taskmasters. That doesn't need to be in the workplace. You know, some of the best performing businesses, have some of the best people policies. Especially in small businesses, those are the organizations that thrive because people feel valued. They feel part of something that gives them a sense of accomplishment.

[00:26:44] HOST: I love Sheila's advice. It's so solid -- but I was curious to know how a small business owner could spot a problem with workplace mental health before it blew up into a full-blown crisis.

[00:26:56] Sheila: One of the important things that we really need to do is talking to [00:27:00] and consulting with our staff, either through workshops or through survey tools, and asking them what are the areas of work that contributed to your feeling stressed?

And by gathering this data, we'll pull this information from employees. We will then consult with employees and understand from them what are the things that we can do as an employer to start to move this forward? Because, we can have all of the reactive tools in place: so we can send people to counseling, we can send them to get treatment and make them better after they become ill. But it's far better if we create an environment where talking to them on a regular basis, listening to them and preventing ill health from occurring in the first place and addressing things at the root cause.

And I always, I always liken it to say if we were making products on a production line. And at the end of the day, if the widgets that were coming off at the end of the production line were broken in some way or damaged, we wouldn't employ a team of people [00:28:00] to fix the widgets. We'd employ a team of people to understand what in the process was going wrong.

[00:28:06] Andrea: Again. Straight to the point, Sheila... and I love it. That is a great way to think proactively about workplace mental health. I think that image of fixing broken widgets vs. fixing the process is going to stay with me for a long time.

Well, Sheila, thank you so much for all of your input today and for all the work you're doing,

[00:28:30] Sheila: Thank you. It's been nice chatting to you.

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[00:28:33] HOST: And YOU for listening.

It’s clear to me that investing in good mental health in the workplace has an impact on productivity and business growth. Organizations thrive when employees feel valued, and this goes way beyond addressing mental health one month a year, it’s about creating and, as a leader, continuing to foster a workplace culture where employees know there is room to grow and thrive. Some of the key takeaways for fostering mental health and avoiding burnout [00:29:00] that I’m adding to my small business playbook after speaking to Shannon and Sheila are:

• Leading by example: as a leader, it’s always good to start by looking into yourself and understanding how you can do better. When you show those around you that it’s ok to communicate what you are feeling, or even take a day for yourself, you show them that they can feel comfortable with doing the same. Which in turn will lead to a healthier work environment where people are able to hit the ground running and keep growing.
• Creating a space where people feel comfortable sharing ideas and being their authentic selves, no matter who they are or where they are in the ladder. And creating this space means asking questions and making sure that everyone knows they have a voice and not judging others too harshly.  
• Implementing education and awareness, especially among people managers so that they know the basics of mental health, [00:30:00] signs to look out for, and how to have difficult conversations and ask the right questions.
• Treating the root of the cause by surveying your team regularly, not just when something goes wrong. Surveying can be anonymous or it can be by having one-on-one conversations with your team so that you understand what isn’t working. Remember Sheila’s example about fixing broken widgets vs. understanding what is wrong in the process and addressing that.
• And lastly, humor! Having a sense of humor goes a long long way. Not taking yourself too seriously. Even if your mission as a company is to save the world, it doesn’t mean you don’t get to be human.

[00:30:50] I hope you got as much out of this episode as I did. As we said --everyone's mental health is up and down these days -- but I believe we really are making progress when it comes to understanding the importance of maintaining good mental health both at home, [00:31:00] and at work. It's everyone's responsibility: employers, employees... and more than anything, we owe it to ourselves.

On the next episode I will be talking to a power couple who leveraged organic social media to grow their small business. They’ve even been featured on Shark Tank! Meanwhile, if you like what you heard, don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast so you can stay up to date with new episodes, let us know what you think by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or email us at (thisissmallbusiness@amazon.com) with episode ideas, and tell your friends about us too!

Until next time – This is SmallBusiness, I'm your host Andrea Marquez -- Hasta luego -- and thanks for listening!

[00:31:50] CREDITS: This is SmallBusiness is brought to you by Amazon, with technical and story production by JAR Audio.

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