Ep. 60: How Good Design Can Help Increase Sales

Take your product design to the next level.

Are you trying to figure out if a rebrand is worth the high price tag? Just ask actors turned entrepreneurs David McGranaghan & Julian Miller, co-founders of McMiller, a company that creates games designed to make you laugh, who went over-budget to rebrand their business. “Strong design [...] turns a four-star review into a five-star review, and I think that's definitely what we've learned, and it's money well spent [...] I would encourage people to put money into design," says David.

In the season finale of This is Small Business, you’ll hear how Julian and David’s love story sparked the idea to start their business, the challenges and benefits of being married to your business partner, and how design can elevate your products. They’ll also talk about the importance of taking it slow when you’re first stepping into entrepreneurship.

In this episode you’ll hear:

(01:23) How David and Julian met and started Mcmiller

(06:11) Why David and Julian wanted to get into entrepreneurship despite being professional actors

(09:55) The challenges and benefits of starting a business with your romantic partner

(12:28) How you could use reviews to improve your products(15:12) How design can elevate your products

(22:36) How success can hurt your business if you’re not prepared for it

(23:54) How to add sustainability into your business – Andrea mentions two This is Small Business episodes about sustainability. If you want to learn more, check out this season's bonus episode “How your business can have an impact” or an episode from season 4 called “How to Grow a Sustainable Business.”

(25:58) Julian and David give us a look into their future goals and their upcoming game

(26:55) Julian and David emphasize the importance of taking things slow when you’re starting your business – it’ll help you avoid mistakes and give you time to work on the best version of your product

Key takeaways:

1 - Starting a new venture may seem daunting, but drawing from past experiences can be invaluable. David and Julian leveraged skills acquired from their acting careers like being adaptable and figuring things out on their own when they were building McMiller.

2 - Balancing a business with your life partner could be challenging. David and Julian say that you need to draw clear boundaries between your work life and your personal life so your business doesn’t take over your relationship.

3 - Despite the challenges, there are loads of benefits to working with your partner. David and Julian point out that they’re able to be more honest with each other and don’t have many arguments about money since the money is all going to one account.

4 - Reviews are a strong resource for your business. David and Julian use positive reviews as a reminder of their "why" to keep going when times get tough but they also use the negative reviews as feedback so they can improve their products and better understand what their customers want.

5 - Design isn't just about aesthetics; it's a cornerstone of success. A well-thought-out design can significantly impact user experience, brand perception, and ultimately, business growth.

6 - At whatever stage you are in your business journey (but especially if you’re just starting out) David and Julian emphasize the importance of taking things slow. When you do that, you’ll be able to spot mistakes earlier in your journey and create a better and more solid foundation for your business that can help you achieve long term success.

Episode Transcript


Andrea Marquez: We've reached the last episode of season four. What a journey. I've talked to so many inspiring and diverse small business owners and experts this season. It really got me excited about everything entrepreneurship. From networking to buying a business, we've covered a lot. Aside from all the valuable lessons learned, I loved hearing everyone's stories, what inspired them to get started, how they navigated difficult situations, why they kept going, and how they were able to turn an idea into reality.

So today, we'll be talking to some really cool guests about their own business journey. Their names might be a little familiar. Oh, and this episode is twice as special. It's not only the season finale, but it's also an episode dedicated to Pride Month, so I hope you enjoy it.

I'm Andrea Marquez, and this is Small Business, a podcast brought to you by Amazon. In this special episode, we'll be digging into a business that started out of love, McMiLLER. We'll talk about how the founders grew their business, the importance of good design, and how to walk the tightrope that can be working with your life partner.


David McGranaghan: We are McMiLLER, and we invent and mass-produce party games, board games, card games, and our games are designed to make you laugh. We really try and pack each box full of belly laughs, and something we're really proud of, and something we really strive towards, is making sure each game is multi-generational. We want granny to be laughing just as much as the kids. Today, we've sold over a million units, and we've had over 350 million social media views across TikTok, Facebook, and Instagram. So yes, we've started from very small to quite a big company now.


Andrea Marquez: That's David McGranaghan. He co-founded McMiLLER with his partner, Julian Miller. You might've heard of them.


Julian Miller: We both trained in London and both lived there for 15 years and worked as actors, Dave mainly in theater. He was in Jersey Boys, playing one of the Jersey boys in the West End, and he was with the Royal Shakespeare Company. Great show. And then, I did more television and film. I was in Spy with Melissa McCarthy, which was a hoot to film. And then we met each other–


David McGranaghan: On a blind date.


Julian Miller: ... on a blind date. Yeah.


David McGranaghan: In London, yeah.


Julian Miller: I know. It was so cute. We were young and innocent, and we fell in love with creating games, and it slowly spun into a business.


Andrea Marquez: So McMiLLER was born out of their love for each other. I mean, the name says it all.


David McGranaghan: My surname is McGranaghan, which is a terrible name for a company. There's so many As and Ns in it. My keyboard has worn away the A and N button. Then you've got Julian Miller. We were just a bit like, “Oh, McMiller?” We went with it for a while, and we met our branding team, were like, “You sound like you sell timber.” We were like, “Deal with it. We're not changing our names.” They're like, “Okay. It just doesn't really sound like a game company, but…” We were like, “Deal with it. It's done now. We're not changing our names.” Yeah, it's really just both our surnames thrown together.


Andrea Marquez: I love that you stood your ground and didn't change your name. I definitely didn't associate it with timber. We'll get into branding and design in a minute, because that's super important, and you do it so well, but first, I'd love to know what it was like meeting each other. Julian, you mentioned in our earlier conversation that you were looking to meet someone?


Julian Miller: I'd never really been in a long-term relationship, and I was like, “I'm turning 30. I need to start making some moves here.” And yeah, it was perfect timing.


David McGranaghan: Yeah, and we both had no money, so we couldn't go out for dinner. That was back in the days where they would still be happy hours, so you could get a drink for a pound in London. For six quid, I think we had a merry old time, and that was it. It was definitely sparks. I was really impressed at how creative Julian was. He was doing a lot of his own short films. They were completely off-the-wall, unapologetic, so out there, and I was so blown away by that. And i think that's where we linked up.


Andrea Marquez: Then the idea to start McMiller came soon after.


David McGranaghan: We would go to each other's families at Christmas and we'd always play a board game. And families coming together, big groups of people, there's alcohol involved, there's children running everywhere, so I would say that the games we were playing always felt a bit lacking. They were too complicated, they couldn't keep everyone's attention span, they weren't funny, and we both always felt that it was such a shame to get all these people together for that one time a year and to have a substandard product.


Andrea Marquez: David and Julian decided to take matters into their own hands and started to create their own games. They developed some fun challenges that entertained everyone, and it was just something they did on the side until...


David McGranaghan: They started to become so popular that folks were like, “Hey, can we get a copy of that? Because I've got this other party coming up and I'd love to take it.” So all of a sudden, we're starting to write instructions, we're starting to put things in a box–


Julian Miller: For free.


David McGranaghan: Yeah, for free, and we were like, “Hang on, this is taking a lot of time. We don't have a lot of money right now. We should start selling these products,” and I think that's how we organically fell into going, “I think we have a business here. I think we can actually sell these boxes.” Filled with laughter is how we were pitching it. That was basically a very organic way that McMiller was born.


Andrea Marquez: So they identified a gap in and created a solution to address it. It was perfect timing, because they were both in need of a side hustle.


David McGranaghan: We were both actors, and one deciding thing for me was I got a really fancy job in the West End. It was a really nice play, I got a really nice part, and I looked at my paycheck and I went, “Oh, and I'm one of the lucky ones. This is a classy job, and this is what I'm getting.”


Andrea Marquez: And acting, as fun as it is, isn't always that stable of a job.


David McGranaghan: So much is in everyone else's hands. You are jumping through hoops for agents, managers, cast, and directors. We both were like, “We want something that is ours and that we are in control of.” I think we were subconsciously seeking some kind of–


Julian Miller: Something, yeah, that could also scratch the itch of still being creative. Because sometimes it's really hard when you're acting and you're like, “Is this going to be sustainable for the rest of my life? I hope so, but what else can I do and do I want to do that still fulfills that urge to be creative?” And i think everything came together where we're like, “Oh, okay. This can fulfill all those things for us, and also, hopefully, can give us a sustainable business.”


Andrea Marquez: Plus, like me, they both come from a family of entrepreneurs. When one person in your family is a business owner, the drive to want to create something you own is definitely higher.


David McGranaghan: My mum used to run a pub in a nightclub in this very small fishing town in Scotland, tourist little town, and Julian's dad used to run an accountancy firm back in Holland.


Julian Miller: My grandma was an entrepreneur in the '50s, '60s. She was the first shop owner in that part of the Netherlands where I'm from.


David McGranaghan: Julian's grandpa was a stay-at-home dad, which was quite a big thing back then. It wasn't that common. When you also grow up with family that are running a business, you go, “Well, if they can do it, I can do it.” That might have been wrong. They might have been like, “No, you can't do it.” But I think growing up in that environment too gives you a slight entrepreneurial kind of– (cross talk)


Julian Miller: Passed down, yeah. Gives you a bit of a leg up, so we've been very fortunate that we have that support around us.


David McGranaghan: Yeah, and i think that all came together in some kind of melting pot along with the opportunity of us accidentally coming up with games that were quite unique, I think, at the time, for sure. It felt like doors opened and we just walked through them. I think that's the right way to put it.


Julian Miller: Still a lot of hard work, though.


David McGranaghan: Yeah, there was some locks in the doors, but we kicked them down.


Andrea Marquez: Oh, gosh. It's definitely a lot of work, and I can tell from all the conversations I've had on the This is Small Business podcast, and from seeing how hard my family of entrepreneurs work, growing up with two entrepreneurial parents, I saw them as workaholics. I remember thinking as a kid, “Why would I want that life where I'm even working on weekends and I'm on call when I'm on vacation?” And then ironically, here I am getting inspired and motivated by other entrepreneurs, and now I'm like, “Should I be doing this?”


Julian Miller: Yeah, we sometimes think about like, “Do we want children? How would that fit into our life?” It's really difficult to fit that into your life when you run a business together as well. So, yeah, there's some trade-offs there, for sure.


Andrea Marquez: So tell me more about that. What is it like working with your partner?


Julian Miller: Challenging.


David McGranaghan: You're always trying to find the balance between your work and your private life between the two of you. It's good to have some rules, and they might be not the hardest of rules, but they do help for us. For example, what we try and do is not talk about work after work, because it's really easy for the workday to bleed into your private life, of course.  

So we draw the line there, and then mainly when we can't help ourselves and do talk about work after work, it's soft stuff. It's fun stuff. It's like, “Oh, what can we do in the future, and what products could we potentially develop?” But we try and steer away from all of that and we do that by, for example, just exposing ourselves to other things. We go to cinema, we go to concerts, we go out for dinner with friends.  

So as much as we then can experience other things, we have other things to talk about that are not the business, because I think that's the hard thing because everything then can become about the business. So those things help, and just be kind to each other. And also, remember during the day when you're working together that you're also still married, and that you can be nice.


Andrea Marquez: But it's not all challenges. David says that there's also benefits to having your life partner be your business partner.


David McGranaghan: You're going to be honest with each other in a way that when you're with a business partner, you sometimes have to sugarcoat stuff rightly or wrongly with each other. You're just like, I don't like that. That's not going to work. Or I think you can be a lot more open. And of course because we're married, everything's going into the same account. So not one argument is about money,


Julian Miller: Never, no.


David McGranaghan: ... or responsibility or anyone not pulling their weight, which I know can obviously be a big bone of contention with other companies. So I agree that it can be all-consuming, but I do think the plus side is that you do eradicate a lot of the noise and the nonsense that can definitely get in the way of working with someone towards a goal.


Andrea Marquez: I never really thought about that, that the money is all going to one account, so it's easier to avoid arguments there. But setting boundaries is important because entrepreneurship can sometimes seep into your daily lives and you don't want it to consume your relationship. And when things get tough, as they do in every small business owner's journey, David and Julian often look at all the positive reviews their games get to keep going.


David McGranaghan: Sometimes we get stuff where it's like we've had a really hard year as a family, some stuff has happened. This is the first time we've laughed together as a family. And even now I'm feeling a bit like, “Oh,” to know that you've kind of worked so hard on something and given someone that is a really rewarding gift too. So it's not all lovely and cheesy. We are of course running a business, but at the same time, to know that the service that you're providing is that is very heartwarming too.


Julian Miller: Yeah, And having our nieces and nephews play our games is always amazing.


David McGranaghan: And they're so young that they have no idea that it's our games, which is also great. So when we use it to test on them, they're like, “This is terrible,” and you're like, “Oh, God, it's really terrible,” because they can't sugarcoat it, their children. But they're so honest. But when they do really enjoy it, you're like, “Oh, that's cool.”


Andrea Marquez: But they don't just pay attention to the positive reviews. Julian says that negative reviews are just as important.


Julian Miller: Sometimes, the only feedback that we get from our customers is reviews, and sometimes people leaving comments on social media pages. So these reviews are vital because it's great feedback and we learn more about our products, and now we can improve them.


Andrea Marquez: Reviews are an essential part of your business. We dig into more reasons why they're important In an episode called How to Build Your Marketing Strategy. It's episode 55 of This is Small Business. We also talk about how to get started with your marketing strategy in that episode, so make sure you give it a listen. We've been talking about how Julian and David started McMiller, and how they navigate being married while running a business together. Now, let's get into how they produce their games.


Julian Miller: So a lot of the time, we make the first prototypes ourselves. So it doesn't cost us a lot of money. We can then make changes really quickly, we can print out some new stuff. We would then look at, okay, what is the price of this? How can we get it manufactured in a way that it's still economical for us? And then we start getting samples from factories, not necessarily the final production sample, but close to, that we then test out, and then obviously we get quotes, and we decide on which factories we're going to go with.  

And a lot of the time we work with two or three factories for the same product, because one does the box and the card elements, the other one does some of the components. And then finally, we get a production sample. But when we get the production sample, we are already at the point that we're going to place an order.


Andrea Marquez: Wow. And how do you come up with the design?


Julian Miller: Well, David is more on the design part of everything, and we have learned so much about design and how important it's, but you're really pushing that in a direction that is really good for our company.


David McGranaghan: We start, like a lot of people, with no money and a lot of time. So, time-rich, cash-poor. And I sat on YouTube and I taught myself Adobe Illustrator, and I learned the absolute basics of how to throw stuff together, how to edit stuff because I couldn't afford graphic designers to do all the small tweaks, or I need it for this, buy this Facebook, but then this, buy this for Instagram. And then all those small announcements, I was like, I need to learn this myself because I can't afford. So then we started out, no idea, no training. So I would hire a logo designer to do the logo and then an illustrator to do the illustrator and then a graphic designer to put it all together.


Andrea Marquez: And when they managed to make a little more money, they decided to rebrand McMiller.


David McGranaghan: Someone came in and did our whole company brand in, and they were more expensive than we wanted to pay. Every time we looked at their stuff, we were like, imagine if that was us. That would change everything. That would change the game for us, literally


Andrea Marquez: They decided that this rebrand was worth the expensive price tag. So even though it was beyond their budget, they found a way to pull it off by splitting the cost over 10 years.


David McGranaghan: And it changed everything because they were so good at branding.


Julian Miller: And also they took us on a journey. They really taught us, in the process, about branding and about graphic design.


David McGranaghan: Yeah. What they did is they asked us a bunch of questions. And again, we were talking about we really want to make people laugh, we really want to do this. And they were like, “You sell laughter. That's what you sell.” That's where we start.  

So, you sell laughter, you sell giggles, you sell tee-hee- hees, you sell hardy-har-hars in our box. That's where we start. And from there it was a feeling, and that's how the fonts got picked, that's how the colors got picked. We want it to feel like Willy Wonka, but games. We want it to be an ice cream shop, like this is fun, but for us, it's called kidult.

So you want adults to love it, but also kids, which is a really hard thing to do. It can go very junior very quickly, and people like you are a bit like, “Oh, that's something I would buy a niece or nephew. That's not for me and my mates.” But then if we go to adult, mum isn't going to buy it for the kids. So it's a really fine line that we learn. We're like, “Oh, it's the dance between the two.” As always with business, it's a balancing act.


Andrea Marquez: Working with a branding agency also made them realize how much thought actually goes into branding, especially since people can instinctively buy products based on the design.


Julian Miller: And it was such a great learning curve for us, which really transformed our company.


David McGranaghan: Yeah, and that changed it for us. And I think like you're saying, and like Julian's saying you buy someone a game or a toy as a gift, it's a reflection of your taste. You want to make sure you are giving them something that makes you feel cool, feel on brand, feel trendy. And that's what we learned from the rebranding.  

And ever since then, we're like, “Oh, okay, we should hire people who handle every part of the game. The text, the font, the illustrations, and it's more about the feeling you get with a game.” And I think that's really where we've turned a corner. It's really just giving you more a feeling and all these other pieces come together to go, “Oh, this feels slightly nostalgic but very futuristic.” Yeah, so that's where the design comes, because like every business, there's a lot of competition out there, so you've got to stand out. And I think that is where we're trying to become a design-led company, so that we're just a little bit cooler than everybody else.


Andrea Marquez: That's a lot of thought process behind it. But I really respect and admire that because you're right, of course the product has to be good, but design gets people in the door first.


David McGranaghan: I completely agree with that. I think design is tough, because like everything, if you want good design, these designers cost good money because they're in demand. And when you're starting out, unless you're very lucky, you do not have the money or the experience to do that, and we've kind of organically stumbled across this.  

And now we're like the extra money that you pay for that design takes that cardboard box and all the elements inside it and makes it feel expensive. It really is mind- blowing what that can do with two products that have got the exact same materials inside them. Strong design turns a four star review into a five star review. And I think that's definitely what we've learned, and it's money well spent, I think. I would encourage people to put money into design.


Andrea Marquez: Plus, good design could lead you to a lot of success. That's what happened with McMiLLER.


David McGranaghan: We've got a game coming out in July, it's called the Catnip Game, and our designer, gym went very '90s, very internet, very cats. They've all got steam coming out their ears. It's bonkers. And that's exactly what the game feels like.  

We're just starting mass production now, but we've already got an order, and it is from the design that the main buyer was like, “Whoa, this is bonkers.” And we were like, it's amazing. And off the back of the design, I do feel confident that customers are going to come in and be like, “ I have never seen a game like this. This is the kind of game I want to give my friends.” So I think that's confirmed our beliefs that investing the little money that you have in design is worth it.


Andrea Marquez: I am sold. Design is a lot more important than you think. So if you feel like your brand or product is in need of a refresh, consider investing in a good designer or rebranding your business, it might help you grow. David mentioned that he had to teach himself design, but that wasn't the only thing that they had to learn when they were starting with McMiLLER.


David McGranaghan: I would say that given our performing background, they didn't teach as much about profit and loss sheets at musical theater school, or shipping, manufacturing, being a manager, all those little things that we had no idea what we were doing. And as it turns out, that's actually 90% of the core of running a business. If you don't have that slick, you don't have a business.


Julian Miller: It's funny because lots of people are like, “Oh my god, you run a board game company. You must be playing games all day. It must be so much fun.” I'm like, yeah, 5% of the time, maybe, if we're lucky.” We are actually developing games. The rest of it is running a business, which we had no idea about how to do that.


Andrea Marquez: So they had to learn a lot from scratch. But being actors kind of helped them navigate that.


David McGranaghan: You're kind of thrown in the spot a lot. “Hey, can you do this accent? Can you play this kind of character.” I guess I'll have to figure out. And you become quite resourceful, and I think that skill, thankfully, was transferable. We were like, I'll get on YouTube. I'll figure it out. I'll read a book about it. And then also again, we're lucky because we have entrepreneurs in our family not running a business like this, but I think the foundations of every business is quite similar, and we could get some guidance in there.


Andrea Marquez: But even though they had a lot of support and access to resources to help them build and grow their business, David and Julian learned the hard way that even success can be an issue.


Julian Miller: We had a TikTok video they went super viral. Within a week, we had 40 million views on it. So we started selling out within a couple of hours, and then we had to shut everything down because we just couldn't fulfill those orders and we were just being over-ordered. So it took us about four or five months to just fulfill all those orders and just make sure that we were back in a place where we felt comfortable to re-enter the market.


David McGranaghan: And I think also, as amazing as that was, we got kind of cocky after that success. You kind of started to think, “ We've got it.” And we ordered a lot more games, and of course it was too much and, we had to warehouse them for too long, because all of a sudden we weren't going viral anymore. And I think that was another challenge for us is to be a bit like, “Okay, don't get too carried away too.” Yet again, like everything, it's about balance, and just be like, “Why don't we just go down the middle route,” I think, and I think–


Julian Miller: Let's make it easy on ourselves, as easy as possible. Let's not pile the pressure on by having to sell all these games.


Andrea Marquez: Julian and David mentioned that they're selling laughter, and they do it so well, but they wanted to do more with their business.


Julian Miller: So, obviously, we are a small company, and we want to be sustainable, but you can't do everything right in the moment. So we're like, “We have to focus our energy on one particular part of the business that we can improve on.”  

So we see, in the board game world, that a lot of plastic is still being used. Obviously it looks great, it's cheap, you can make really fancy stuff with plastic, but that is not sustainable. Plastic doesn't necessarily need to be a component of games. Can we be creative enough to find other ways of using different materials instead of plastic but still have a wow factor? And we're like, “Yes, we can do that.”

Use natural materials such as rubber, cardboard, wood, wool felt, and in order to get something that still has a wow factor, for example, we create a game called Fire in the Hole, and it comes with this beautiful pirate pop-up ship. When you open it up, people are like, “Oh my god, that is amazing.” And it's made out of really sturdy cardboard and felt balls, and it's done really well, and it's been a challenge, but it's also pushed our creativity in a really nice way.


Andrea Marquez: From all the conversations I've had with entrepreneurs, I'm noticing that many small business owners are trying to move towards making their products more sustainable. We've talked about sustainability on This is Small Business.  

So, if you want to learn more about sustainability and how to implement it in your business, you should check out this season's bonus episode, How Your Business Can Have An Impact, or an episode we made last season called How to Grow a Sustainable Business. Julian and David mentioned a new game that they're working on called Cat Mitt, so I obviously had to ask about it.


Julian Miller: So yeah, this summer we are launching our new game, the Cat Mitt game. It comes with a rubber ball and these cat mitts and it's a very frantic game in which you have to knock treats out of this treat ball and feed your little kitties. So the idea for our company is that every year we launch a new game, just one or two games. We don't want to overwhelm ourselves with too many products, and we want every product to be special and well thought out. But the ultimate goal, I think for us, is to become a household name. We want you hear our name, McMiLLER, to stand for laughter, multi-generational fun, sustainability. So we're aiming high, and we want to be a worldwide brand, and move into more stores and more countries.


Andrea Marquez: Those are ambitious goals, and I also really love that they're trying to take it slow. That's something Julian and David say is essential when you're trying to start a business.


Julian Miller: Slow down, take your time, don't rush, because it's really easy to get carried away by it, because excited, and you want to make changes, you want to build something up, and sometimes it's good to just reflect and maybe take a little bit of time before you jump into it.


David McGranaghan: Yeah. I think entrepreneurs in general are very ambitious. We have egos. Otherwise you wouldn't sit there and go, " I think I can do that better," or " I can pull it off." I think, like Julian's saying, if you can take your time and get it right the first time, then you're free to do everything else after that. I think that is from experience of us getting everything wrong the first time, and spending lots of money and time–


Julian Miller: Unpicking.


David McGranaghan: ... trying to unpick and go back to basics and fix it. And it's so hard when you're impatient and ambitious. I think every entrepreneur shares that. No matter what industry they're trying to go into, they want it all in six months' time. I would say it's long-term thinking, not short-term. And that's something–Yeah.


Julian Miller: And sometimes we still struggle with , you know .


David McGranaghan: Yeah, we do. You need a bit of both. You need the hare and the tortoise. Sometimes you can't just be one of them. You need that drive to get there and then learn from your mistakes. But the tortoise wins the race, Julian.


Julian Miller: It does.


David McGranaghan: Slow and steady.


Andrea Marquez: Instant gratification is a big thing nowadays, so I think that's an important reminder. Take your time when you're building your business or creating a new product. When you do that, you're less likely to make mistakes, and like Julian and David, you'll eventually be successful, and hopefully, that comes with a lot of shared laughs. I've learned a lot from Julian and David and their journey with McMiLLER.

If you missed anything, don't worry, we've taken notes for you. You can find them at www. smallbusiness.amazon.com. And while you're there, you can also check out the rest of the season. I spoke to so many inspiring small business owners and experts, and I've realized that there's still a lot more to learn, so I can't wait to see you in the next season of This is Small Business.

I love hearing from you. So let me know what you thought of our episodes or any topics that you'd like me to explore next season by leaving a review in Apple Podcasts. It's easier if you do it through your phone. You can also reach out to us at thisismallbusiness@ amazon. com. That's it for the season finale of This is Small Business, brought to you by Amazon. Make sure to subscribe and tell your friends about us by sending them a link to this episode.  

Until next time, I'm your host, Andrea Marquez. Hasta luego, and thanks for listening. This is Small Businesses is brought to you by Amazon with technical and story production by Jar Audio.


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