Bonus episode: Empowering diverse voices through storytelling

[00:00:06] Lee: Box checking for the sake of box checking, diversity for the sake of diversity helps nobody. And what's really important to remember when we talk about diversity is it goes a lot farther than race or gender. There is diversity in income, diversity in perspective, diversity in a walk of life.

[00:00:26] HOST: Hi, This is Small Business, a weekly podcast brought to you by Amazon. I'm your host Andrea Marquez. This show is all about learning how to start, build, and grow your small business.  

Diversity is increasingly seen as a “must” in growing a business -- we've talked about that on episode 24 with Jennifer Kim -- And diversity is also something I like to keep in mind when I'm producing This is Small Business. There are so many talented and successful business owners from so many different walks of life and -- I'm sure you noticed that we try to share as many diverse stories as we can. [00:01:00] If you've listened to the season finale of Season 2, Miguel Leal mentioned how difficult it is for him and other Latinos to share their stories -- and I feel like I see that a lot: this struggle to share their own stories with the world. And even if they get over that initial obstacle, where should they start? How can we empower others, foster connection, and effect change by sharing stories from diverse voices around the world?

In March, I was in Las Vegas at Podcast Movement Evolutions, and I had the opportunity to speak with some amazing people -- pioneers in the podcasting industry and people who don't shy away from telling their stories. I talked to Mike Sargent, the co-host of Brown & Black Podcast, Lee Adams, the Producer of The Midnight Miracle, Lori Lizarraga, the host of Code Switch, and Kulap Vilaysack, the co-host of Add To Cart.  

We had a wonderful and insightful discussion on how to empower diverse voices through podcast storytelling, and [00:02:00] I needed to share their advice and stories with you all. And I think this is especially relevant to anyone thinking about starting a business or seeking to grow and take the next step. Diversity is not just about checking a box, it’s much more than that and it can also lead to scaling your business and that’s what we’ll be talking about today. I'm so excited for you to hear from Kulap, Lee, Lori, and Mike! To get to know them a little better, I wanted to share some of their stories with you first. Specifically, a time in their life or career where they realized diverse storytelling can lead to action or a change in behavior. Here's what Lee, Producer of The Midnight Miracle, had to say.

[00:02:37] Lee: For me, that moment came very early in my career and it was my first job at Vice. First time living in New York. I was an associate producer on a show called Wiki, which was hosted by a really incredibly talented journalist named Krishna Andavolu, and it was the first time that I had seen someone who was Brown, who was my age and came from a background similar to mine, doing a job so deftly [00:03:00] that I admired so much so to the point that I decided to borrow from him and so many other people and try to forge my own path in this industry doing a very similar role. And had I not been working so closely with Krishna, I may not be sitting on the stage right now. I don't know what I'd be doing, but I'd probably be in a law firm somewhere doing something very boring. But it was that early moment, seeing somebody who looked like me, that representation that really inspired me to want to become a journalist and a story.

[00:03:30] HOST: I love that. Representation matters because when you see someone who looks like you in a role that you dream of growing into, it fills you with hope. It becomes easier to envision yourself in that position. Here's Mike, co-host of Brown & Black Podcast.

[00:03:44] Mike: I started out in radio actually doing radio drama and I created a character. It was this sort of a James Bond in outer space, and I imagined him, of course, to be Black. But at the time, this is like early nineties. You could count on one hand if you went to a science fiction convention, [00:04:00] the amount of Black folks. So in my original drawings of him, he had no face. It's an audio drama, so he could look however you want, but over time, you know, I finally started to say, okay, and, and I started doing the character and we painted him, illustrated him Black. And you know, I started going to Black Expose and we even made a music video. This is the nineties. I had a, a rap song for the, for the cd. I released it on CD and we did a music video. And it was basically the character, you know, fighting aliens and saving the girl and all that stuff.

And it would play at the table on a little monitor. And I'll never forget we were at a Black expo in LA, and you know, we had our music blasting, we had all the posters and art and everything, and you know, we were there and this little kid came over and he was staring at the screen, watching, looking at this video, and the video was only like three, four minutes and it was on a loop. He stood there for 45 minutes just staring at it, and I remember looking at him and I knew exactly what was in his head. He was seeing himself for the first time as a hero. [00:05:00] And it, it, it changed me in that I realized, wow, I, not only do I have to do this, but I have to, you know, this is what I wanna do with my career. I want to empower and inspire and show folks of color that they can do it. So that was a moment for me.  

[00:05:15] Andrea: That story made me tear up. It must be amazing seeing the effect of your work on your community. Especially when they’re young and barely figuring out what it means to be who they are and when they start identifying with what they see. Here's Kulap, the co-host of Add To Cart.

[00:05:30] Kulap: I started podcasting in 2010 for a show called Who Charted. And Podcasting was sort of the first place. My background was acting. Um, was one of the first places that I could enter as myself and I got more comfortable just being who I am fully. Not just being like blanket Asian American or like the funny girl or whatnot. I could start to, I found my voice and with that confidence, the ability to reach so many people in such an intimate way, I, [00:06:00] I decided that I would finally do a documentary. It was autobiographical, it's called Origin Story, and it was about me going to Laos and meeting my biological father for the first time. And my finishing funds came from podcasting, from my own podcasting, from going to other people's podcasting. This community really helped me. It became a catalyst for me, I grew up in Minnesota, Um, my name's Kulap. And so like, almost purposely I sort of compartmentalized parts of me. Things that I thought was maybe more palatable, I thought, but was through podcasting, through telling my story, was able to speak as like a whole person.

[00:06:43] Andrea: It still blows my mind that we’re still figuring out how to be comfortable as a whole based on who we know we are and not what the media tells us we should be. I like that we get to create that space when we start showing up unapologetically. Here's Lori a host of Code Switch, with her story.

[00:07:00] Lori: I come from the, a journalism background and so my way in has always been through the power of what journalism can do and how it can hold people accountable and get things done. And when you give a call to action and you do a good enough story and you keep doing consistent stories about things that deserve to be talked about, brought attention to, given resources to things can get done. The catch is, is if our communities aren't the ones being held up in that work, then they don't benefit from what journalism can do. And so I got into it through having gone to live in my mom's home country of Ecuador after college, a big natural disaster, hit 7.8 magnitude. Ended up staying there six more months leading all these medical supply missions and trying to help get people from living under tarps and there was no attention. Media swept in and went away and mission after mission after mission raising funds. I just remember thinking one day if I was someone [00:08:00] with a reputation for journalism and with people who followed what I was doing and looked at the work that I was creating and, and looked what I was bringing attention to, I could hold this whole situation accountable in such a bigger way, if I had that background and if I could like put journalism behind it. And so I came back to the States and went to my first station, and I've seen the power of accountability journalism and storytelling, and being in the room to advocate for our communities in ways that are so significant. And I, I, I can't even imagine what it would be like to not have been there for how effective story after story has been through the markets that I've been in, especially during a time like the pandemic when so many communities didn't have representatives from their communities, didn't have the network of people to call, didn't even have like a first language to be able to explain the resources that they lacked and the ways they were getting left behind.

And work that, that we would do would, would get in front of the people who needed to see it so that resources that wouldn't have otherwise been there would, would arrive out of that, that power to [00:09:00] hold people accountable and, and say what is not happening that should be and, yeah, I think that's the, that for me has been the reason, I guess for seeing the power of, of what it can do and feeling like the responsibility, I guess, to, to be in the room so that the power of it can be to the benefit of, of people like me, my family, my community.

[00:09:16] HOST: These are all amazing, impressive stories. I'm just blown away by all the things that they've done, are currently doing, and how they're representing their communities through different types of storytelling, because they're all not just podcasters, they're filmmakers and directors, writers, et cetera. Now that we've got to know a little more about them, I wanna tell you all the tangible things that we covered in this panel. Starting with Lori giving advice on the first obstacle you might need to overcome. How, when, and why should you even start sharing your own stories?

[00:09:50] Lori: I spent a lot of time waiting, I guess a little bit for like the permission to speak that same way, to have that edge of like, confidence about what I'm talking about to, to talk about like my stories, my community, [00:10:00] what I wanna say in a way that just has like inherent value. And I know that. And so I'm saying it that way, and because of that, I'm setting the precedent and the standard that you should also know that it, it just inherently matters. And I'm telling you that this is going to matter to this community because it does. I'm just telling you that it will, I'm not asking for permission. I think that is, that's the advice that no one will give you. Like no one's gonna shake your hand and call you into like the closed-door meeting and be like, Hey, we trust you now. Like go for it. You do just have. Believe that your community is that important and the stories that you wanna say and your perspective and your experiences are worth talking about. Um, I think it comes with walking in and believing that and knowing that about yourself, not telling people that it does, like knowing yourself that it does. Half of that battle I think comes like from within. And so I think that that's also like, I guess taking, like, again, back the ownership because that's the only seat I've ever sat in is knowing that the onus is on us.

[00:10:50] HOST: Another reason that we have to chart that path sometimes, is because we haven’t seen it done before. And Lori speaks to that too.  

[00:10:55] Lori: There is so much power in encouragement and in sort of like ingesting other people's content [00:11:00] and giving feedback. Nothing feels better than knowing that people are in the world, like listening to what you're creating, believing in you, sharing thoughts. There is not like not enough kind, encouraging words, especially on the way to being a successful creator in a space that is. Is there is a lot of competition and there is a lot of talent. So I would, I would say just be generous with the belief in people, like you said, nurture, nurture other people's talent and creativity. Having creators also next to you, your community in this space, being able to encourage the work that maybe you're not getting, you know, from who you would maybe seek, like normally. We are also talking about first generation folks who we're coming into this space not having seen our parents do it, or our friends do it, or our family do it. We're kind of like out here charting our path, and these are like totally uncharted waters. And so there is like a lot of, you feel isolation. There's not a lot of conversation, at least in my space, of like shared experience with family members. So community really becomes like, who else is creating and who's like doing the work with you or doing the work in their space and, and ingesting mine. So yeah, I think community in this space is also like powerful and, and a huge source of encouragement and just gives you, [00:12:00] it can give you like that push to keep going, keep creating.

[00:12:04] HOST: Okay so, make sure you create an environment that allows people to feel comfortable in trying out new things and figuring out who they are within this space. Mike also had some amazing advice to share on uplifting diverse voices.

[00:12:15] Mike: I think, you know, in terms of philosophically, we live in a society where often cultural pride equals cultural prejudice.  

[00:12:25] HOST: I’m going to take a beat. Pause. And rewind real quick.  

[00:12:30] Mike: …we live in a society where often cultural pride equals cultural prejudice.  

[00:12:34] HOST: Ok now… let’s keep going.  

[00:12:36] Mike: And I think what we have to do is change that to realize, okay, you can think that being whatever you are is great, but why not embrace what this other person is doing because I feel like, you know, that's the danger. I do a show called Brown & Black, and I do it with a Latino co-host. And because we, you know, we're interested in each other's culture, we're interested in and we respect what each other has to say. I'm learning from him. He's learning from me. You know, we learn from our audience, we learn from our guests, [00:13:00] but that's the beauty, you know, it's like you see a foreign. When you see a foreign film, there's like a glimpse of a place you've never been, a culture you've never been to. They're doing things that are similar but different and it's fascinating and it also shows just how connected we are. You know, there, there are languages that don't even exist anymore because. It was not continued because that culture was not valued. So I think to me, the important thing is to realize that cultural pride should be just pride in just culture. You should just want to absorb culture because you know you're even better at parties when you know things. I think it's, it's more of a, a, a realizing just how much you can get. There are a lot of things we already know. You know, before my first film, a producer said this to me and I thought it was glib, and he says, you don't know what you don't know. And it's true.  

[00:13:50] HOST: And of course, even though diversity is important, Lee pushes us to consider expanding what diversity means to us, in business, podcasting, or whatever you're working on. [00:14:00] It’s one of my favorite reminders on what diversity means.

[00:14:04] Lee: Box checking for the sake of box checking, diversity for the sake of diversity helps nobody. And what's really important to remember when we talk about diversity is it goes a lot farther than race or gender. There is diversity in income, diversity in perspective, diversity in a walk of life. So when you think about diversity and you want to incorporate it into your very large or very small business, remember that, uh, hiring a woman doesn't always serve you in the way that you may hope it is going to serve you. Hiring a Black person or an Asian person or whomever is not gonna serve you in the way that you may think it's going to because someone from Southeast Asia and someone from East Asia have two very different cultures, and there's not any single group in any society that exists as a monolith, regardless of their common denominator that ties them together. So my biggest CTA [00:15:00]  is look for nuance and find that diversity and perspective and leave space for it, because that will actually benefit all of us in the long run in a much more important way than checking a box.

[00:15:12] HOST: Box checking for the sake of box checking, diversity for the sake of diversity helps nobody. And I want to make sure we hear the last thing Lee said one more time.  

[00:15:22] Lee: Look for nuance and find that diversity and perspective and leave space for it, because that will actually benefit all of us in the long run in a much more important way than checking a box.

[00:15:35] HOST: Repeating this because I think it was so beautifully said. So then, how can we spotlight diverse stories in a way that serves the story itself and the community? Here's Lori's take on it.

[00:15:45] Lori: I think sometimes the mission is like missed the looking for diverse stories, like the act of like, it has to be diverse. It has to reach a new audience, it has to reach a demographic that we haven't gotten to yet. We really need a new quota. We really need this demographic of people. [00:16:00] Versus like just knowing that our stories are interesting, important, that these voices matter. That our experiences also aren't just needled into being my, I'm not just a woman. I'm not just Latina. I'm not just first generation. I'm not just that, that having experiences in this country also relates to other people who don't have to be Latina. What's amazing is to see stories that are sort of pitched as this is a story for a Latina to tell how much further they go and how many more people who are not at all from the same sort of like diversity check boxes as me, write me saying the ways that that experience reflects themselves and reflects their own experiences or reflects their family's experiences or someone that they know or that that sort of highlighted an experience within themselves that they didn't even realize was something significant or that that happened to them. And that's, that's an interesting perspective.

We continue spotlighting diverse voices when. Remember that there are communities out there looking for content. Doesn't have to be Latino content, doesn't have to be Black content, doesn't have to be white content, just has to be good content. And the gag behind having like the awesome voice behind it, that's Latina. That's just. [00:17:00] That's just icing on the cake, right? Because I'm gonna talk about my experiences. I'm gonna talk about where I come from, where I've been, what I've seen, what I've done, what I've been through by nature of being Latina. That just lends to some stuff that's gonna resonate more with my community, but it's also gonna resonate with other people too, who have different experiences and they don't have to look like me or be from where I come from. I think it's less like, hurry, find the diverse voice. It's more just remembering, like you said, there's so much talent out there from our communities and business dollars and cents. You need my community, but you're not gonna get us by talking about the Latino issues. You're gonna get us by creating good content. We're here to ingest what speaks to us, what reminds us of the stuff that, you know, we enjoy ingesting. And if it tastes good, you'll come back. And I think it's just remembering that audience yes, wants to be spoken to by somebody who resonates with them. But a lot of audiences want that. And I think, you know, people who come from our communities, we have that. We have that to give. And, you're not doing anyone any favors to put a, a creator of color in the seat to, to change the narrative and to bring new perspective. That's a good thing for everyone.

[00:18:00] Kulap: I had a writing teacher that shifted things for me and he, he said that, write so much about you yourself, be so detailed in your experience that it's about all of us. When you write on the surface, when you generalize, it's about no one.  

[00:18:15] Andrea: I loved what Kulap added there. Be more detailed about your own personal, unique experience because that makes it more universal. I honestly love digging into the amazing stories behind all the small business owners who come on This is Small Business. Their stories are fascinating and of course, I always learn so much from them. And one of the constants in this conversation and the ones I’ve had in past episodes of the show is, tell your story, especially as a small business owner who started a product out of a personal need. There’s a question I get asked often from small business owners, naturally as a podcast producer, I get asked if they should consider starting a podcast for their business. My answer is not an easy yes or no because it depends on your goals. However, I do think that it helps tell your brand story and build a loyal customer base. [00:19:00] So during the panel, we also talked about how podcasting can help us drive more diversity in storytelling. Especially with how easy it is to just start a podcast. I mean you could probably start one right now if you wanted to. Here's what Lee and Mike had to say about that.

[00:19:17] Lee: When I'm working on a pod or I'm working on a new episode of a pod in my mind, I'm competing with your favorite song. So if I can't make something that is as emotionally dynamic, has as much range as as fun to listen to as your favorite song. There is nothing keeping you from clicking next on Spotify and going to whatever else is in your queue. I'm really competing for your attention and I need to take that very seriously. So I look at what we do as art. So for me, I'm trying to make something that you are going to score a moment of your life to. It's gonna be the soundtrack of whatever you were going through at that moment, and that's how I think you open up conversations and you invite the audience in. [00:20:00] And if you approach it from that perspective, then you will find success in sharing your perspectives with other people.  

[00:20:06] Mike: I see stories and storytelling and art in general as creative problem solving. So like, how can I present this narrative. How can I tell this story? What's the best way? Do I need scene tape? What am I gonna do to present this? How am I gonna frame this so that I can get what I need? What kind of scoring do I need? What sound effects, what can I do to enhance this story? And I think there's a lot out there. Like if you're into Oatmeal delumper, there's an Oatmeal de Lumper podcast. So whatever it is you're into, you can find, but at the same time, there's still gonna be, you know, 10 oatmeal de lumper podcasts. So if you are trying to tell a story and if you feel it's important, if you're excited about it, hopefully you're gonna get somebody else excited. You have to be excited about the stories you're telling. You have to be enthusiastic about the stories you're telling. And I think coming back to what I said before, you have to be enthusiastic about telling stories. [00:21:00] You know, the more diverse, the better. But it's still, like you said, it's gotta be a good story. You know, you've gotta grab me. Okay. Because yeah, I, I've heard stories about things I don't care about, but it's told so well, like, wow, now I care about it. So that should be your goal, like, You want to make a podcast for somebody who doesn't care about oatmeal to like, want to go out and buy some oatmeal now.

[00:21:20] HOST: When you tell a story, people care more. So, we've talked a lot about the importance of diversity and sharing your story. And why diversity for diversity’s sake isn't the best. We opened up the conversation to the audience and had a question about what you should do if you get an opportunity that's very obviously diversity for diversity's sake.

[00:21:40] Lee: If that opportunity can serve you, then you should take it and you should exceed whatever hopes they had for you in taking that opportunity. If that is not an opportunity that is given out in earnest and you don't feel like your perspective or your voice is being heard or listened to, now I really am strong advocate for advocating for yourself [00:22:00] and your own voice and your own perspective. So a certain amount of responsibility is also on us as the people in those rooms to be the change that we want to see. As much as it is for the people who are decision makers to seek out those voices for the sake of again, bringing them in to whatever it is that you're already doing.

[00:22:20] Mike: If it's an opportunity for you to advance not just your career, but whatever it is that, you know, I, I tend to feel being an artist doing what we do, it's a purpose. It's a calling. It's something that you're gonna do. So if it's gonna advance what you do, even if you know they're only doing it to check a box, fine. You've got a box to check too.

[00:22:40] Lori: I think we carry the weight of feeling like we have to do all the work. Yes. Like we're talking about like, you know, deconstructing systems that are working against our communities or you know, that have been built that we don't succeed. And I think you walk in with a sense of responsibility to fix that. That's a lot to fix. And also you're not getting paid for that labor. You got walk in the room and you get paid to do the job that you got hired to do. And all the extra that is extra what you can pull off. That's significant. [00:23:00] But I think we also go to bed with a lot of responsibility for the success of our whole entire communities.

And the higher we go, the more we owe. That's a lot. And it can break you on the way to remaining in a business that desperately needs your voice and your passion. So I think it's, it's twofold, right? Make sure that you don't go in putting every single thing and every amount of progress that needs to get made on yourself. And also make sure that when you're in an interview, you're interviewing them if they're talking about lifting you up, your voice, your experience, your perspective on things, get it in writing. It's very nice to hear that you want my voice. It is a totally different thing to see that in action and to watch you get written out of a script, to watch your story pitch, get turned down to watch the perspective or the nuance or, or the empathy with which you are talking about a character be shifted because somebody else's narrative or perspective doesn't see it your way.

It is crucial that you write the language that will uphold exactly what they're saying. They're hiring you for, for the works that it translates when you're actually in the room, [00:24:00] that you have the authority, that you are given the permission and that you are given the trust and sort of the hands off to yes, make sure that this work is, is quality standard. Make sure that this work, you know, meets all of the checks and balances that this place, you know, has been known to do. It's up to, up to snuff. It's gonna have the same reputation, the same quality of work. But in terms of the voice, yeah, I'm shifting the voice. You don't have to like the content, but that's what I'm here to do is, is be a different voice.  

[00:24:25] HOST: That was Lori Lizarraga, the host of NPR’s Code Switch, Mike Sargent, the co-host of the Brown & Black Podcast, Kulap Vilaysack, the co-host of Add To Cart, and Lee Adams, the Producer of The Midnight Miracle. Thank you for listening today, I had such a wonderful time speaking to Lori, Kulap, Lee, and Mike and I've learned a lot from them. So, even though this episode was different than our usual programming, I cannot leave without sharing some key takeaways:

• One. Your unique story matters, and can make a difference in the lives of many. So don’t be afraid to speak up and share who you are. [00:25:00] As Kulap's teacher told her, the more detailed and personal you are with your story, the more universal it will be. So, don't shy away from writing about personal experiences because it WILL resonate with a wider audience. As a business owner, and if you’ve listened to past episode of This is Small Business, you already know how powerful stories resonate with audiences and can lead to life-long customers.  
• Two. If you have the power in the room, if you are the leader, take risks on people who don't look like you or who you might not understand. And make sure you give feedback and encouragement. Businesses can succeed when you listen, try something new, and leave space for diversity in stories.  
• Three. Remember, diversity for the sake of diversity helps no one. As Lee said look for nuance and find that diversity and perspective and leave space for it. Diversity is not just about race and gender, there’s so much more to it that you can think about when you’re telling your brand story.  

I'm curious – How are you empowering others to share their own stories? [00:26:00] Or if you've got your own story to tell, I'd love to hear all about it. Reach out to us at thisissmallbusiness@amazon.com to tell us what you're up to. Or let me know what you think of the episode by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts – it’s easier if you do it through your phone. And if you liked what you heard -- I hope you'll share us with anyone else who needs to hear this!  

If you’re an aspiring entrepreneur, and I hope you are if you’re listening to This is Small Business. Or maybe you already have your small business up and running and you’re ready for the next step. A super valuable resource that can help you is the Amazon Small Business Academy where you can find the help you need to take your small business from concept to launch and beyond. Take the free self-assessment on the Amazon Small Business Academy site at www.smallbusiness.amazon.

That's it for this special episode of This is Small Business, brought to you by Amazon.

Until next time – This is Small Business, I'm your host Andrea Marquez -- Hasta luego -- and thanks for listening!  

[00:27:00] CREDITS: This is Small Business is brought to you by Amazon, with technical and story production by JAR Audio. [00:27:25]